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Lethbridge Herald Newspaper Archives

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Lethbridge Herald, The (Newspaper) - October 23, 1972, Lethbridge, Alberta Monday, Oclobir 13, 1972 THE liTHBRIDGE HERMD Conversation: Lethbridge candidates on the issues Kellli, yuu'rc first alphnlicti-, cully. What in your arc the Issues In the Oct. JO election? HANCOCK: Our party be licvcs llial most of the issues right hack lo the money ,rsiluation everything depends on money. If we couk) get Ihis into proper perspective we (eel that many of the ills of the nation, as well as the local situation, could be cor- roded. What would von do specifical- ly? HANCOCK: Well basically Social Credit people feol the money system must be put bnck into the hands of Hie fed- eral government. Creation of money, as we know il right now, is on the fractional re- serve system which simply is a system Ihnt allows money to be created out of nothing, in other words, kind of a kceping system. Would you print more money? HANCOCK: Well, we feel that if money were distributed and controlled by the govern- ment, and certainly printed as it was needed, it allow for a flow of traded goods. Challenge Does anybody challenge thai? HOFFMAN: I certainly do. To me, money represents tlie efforts that people have put into producing something. Ev- ery time we manipulate money we are in essence manipulat- ing people. Tliis is where differ with Mr. Hancock. Ev crything does rot depend on money. Money is just like any kind of technology, it's a means of exchange. As far as I'm concerned the main issue is the crisis on the (arm. The farmers are in deep Irouble und I want to ask Andy if he says Ihe land is strong how is it that the farmers' economic position is so weak after years of Libera Keiih Hancock, Social Credit policy. The L.I.F.T. (lower in yenlory for tomorrow grain incentives) program was a dis aster. We have now seen whcr they've sold lots of wheat Ini at fire sale prices and tb fanners arc suffering badl; enough already. The big is sue is to decide what we're go ing to do the farmers. Ou party is slating specific-ally lha we will give a basic guaranle- for all basic products on the farm, and furthermore, we'r sayinj! thai we arc against r.ii line abandonments. I've a Mr. nurlbuil and Mr. Iti alxnil (his issue and they haven't come out very strongly on cilher one. Hail lines RUSSELL: I would like to comment on Ihe railroad aban- donment issue. Thc Liberal government not long ago said they would not con'etnplale any further requests for railroad Was that coiirrrmiig Ihe Ca- nadian National or (lie O'anarfi- IIUSSELL: By gosh, don'l ou think they've got a good eal as individuals? HURLBURT: My comments s' far as rail abandonment is oncemcd are the same as my pinion when I was mayor of "orl Macleod nnd was intcr- icivcd there. We wouldn't even ave lo be looking at rail aban- onmcnt If planning had been one Iho Dominion of Can- da. We experienced a grcal "entralizalion period in Ihe .vestock business lighl before he lasl world war. Alter the ast war wc watched as a great eccntralization of the livestock market took the market lo the Point A to point B becomes closer and closer every day be- ause of science and lechnol- igy and highway systems and modern automobiles and every- hing. I think planning is going o have to come under environ- mental control and our factor- and everything should be ituated to take tliis into ac- -ounl. Environmental control is most necessary and goes hand n hand with planning whether ou're planning a town, a city tr a nation. There's so many elements. There's Ihe atmos- 'liere and everylhing else. Yo-j know as you drive to Calfary now there arc many days that can see the over the city of Calgary and I think hrough planning there'll have o lie a definite size according :o what cities can handle. Problems Is this a federal government rohlem? HURLDURT: Well I lliiuk it's 'oing to have lo he, because we're going to have to end up with n belter relationship be- .ween our provinces in plan- ning our nation. We're ending with pollution problems, In an effort lo bring the candidates in 1'ne Lethbridge constituency in next Monday's -federal election closer to the public. The Herald invited all four contestants to a round table discus- sion with reporters recently. The discussion, reported here verba- tim, lasted more than an hour and covered a variety of topics storting with Social Credit monetary theory and ending with capital punishment. All four candidates are newcomers to the federal political arena and are trying for the seat left vacant by Con- servative MP Deane Gundlock, who is retiring after 14 years in the House of Commons. Seeking your vote are: Keith Hancock, 39, a Raymond real estate agent. Social Credit; Hal Hoffman, 38, a Lethbridge Community College in- structor, New Democratic Parly; Ken Hurlburt, 44; a Fort Macleod auction- eer. Conservative; and Andy Russell, 56, a Waterton area naturalist, Liberal, going lo bring oil dou-n one way or another and the lestcr of two evils I Ihtnk, and oilier people agree, is to bring it by pipeline up the Mackenzie lliv- IVill the United Stales go along with the most of lliosc pipeline involved to favor tankers down the Wcbt Coast? RUSSELL: People have; of-, festively blocked their (oil com- panies) move so far. Whether it can be continued or not I don A know, hut there's a great pcr- of Americans themselves arc against bringing oil with policing problems with thc I ora aml tbev centralization programs we :iave in effect today. lion who down Ihe coasl. Cerlainly we arc against il because of the danger of an oil spill. It would be a veal calaslrophe if you dumped one of those big lank- lo really rtait to locate all the oil reserves Iherc. HOFFMAN.- I find it very in- teresting Mr. Hurlburt Ihal reu're talking planning. For and years the NDP and the CCI-' before has ad- vocalcd that we have a Man, that the government plan ahead and take the initiative in Lhe overall design of Ihe country and we were always castigated for this. Tliis was supposed to a private enterprise affair. They would do the planning. Seems to me this is a complete about face for Ihe Conservative candidate to now say that they are in favor of planning. I Lhink we are finally starting to reap the benefit of no plan at all for the last 100 years and this is why we're having all these problems. I would submit to you and to Mr. Russell lhat if we had looked after the leg- Lslalion that was in effect and used thc teeth that were in it we wouldn't have (he pollution problem that we have today. IIURLDCJRT: Well, the Pro- gressive Conservative parly has always been for it and Ihe only thing 1 Ihink we must all realize around this table today particularly after Team Ca- nada going lo Russia is that wc will have to protect our democratic system the same as other countries prolect their particular form of government and any political party that is branded with socialism or com- munism or receiving their dir- ections from unions across Ihe line, I think we're going lo have lo take a real big run at 'em because we have a system here we're going to protect, HOFFMAN: The samo arguc- ment applies to any corpora- tions lhat gel directions from across thc line. The corpora- lions are doing un awful lot of planning from outside (his country too, Issues There are rumors that pos- sibly the Town of CardsUm sits land granloil to the Black- Indians under a trcaly in I lie 1570s. If I lie Indians lie- maud Hie land what rec- ommendations would ymi make in the -matter as the, local MP? (Cardston Mayor Lloyd Greg- soil told The Herald the land belongs to the Mormon Chnreh and otlirrs and mit to tlic In- dians. If the matter was form- ally raised it Is certain lo bt HANCOCK: is something I'm afraid this I havcn'L gotlen too involved in. But certainly you can't destroy the town and lurn it over to any Rroup of people. This is certainly going to have to be worked out on an equitable basis. IIURLBUP.T: We'll have to' meet with government officials, Ihe people of Cardslon and liie members of Ihe reserve. Be- cause at the signing of the Sev- enth Treaty we made a deal wilh the Indian people and by golly, it's our duly to live up to an agreement. It would be very foolish lor us to think that the Indians could have their land back that the Town of Cardston is now situated on, but I Ihinl: Ihal if we made a deal with them it would the federal government's r e s p o n s i I) il- where the boundaries lie and what our -commitments ,vere at that time and we'll rave Lo live by them. We're ng to have to deviate a lit- tle because it would be impos- sible lo move a town. But then would be up lo the federal authorities lo make a settle- ment with 'the Indian people. HOFFMAN: We'd have to check it this is in fact the case. I took the trouble to check with Indian Affairs and they have no record of this, although they said this would have to go back to Ihe archives. My sentiments are very much Lhe same as Mr. Hurlburt's but basically I think that we have a responsibility here not In start creating all kinds of sensationalism until we know what the facts are. Alliances In the event of a minority government would you along with an alliance wilh the other parties to defeat the govern- jnenl? HURLBUHT: I Lhink it would be very easy for me to join with another party il they were a democratic party, if (hey Ije- lived in free enterprise. But 1 think it would be very difficult lor me to join forces wilh a party if I though it was Lainled ,-ilh socialism or communism. HANCOCK: We in Social Cre- dit have never been very con- cerned with -what you call party, really. We have what we consider our basic principles and standards with which we wish lo live by.' Certainly we would align (o the extent that (hey came around to our think- ing and if we could get togeth- er on lira ba_sic principles that we believe in the Social Cre- dit government has always been a free enterprise govern- ment lh.cn I think we couk ny then lo conic in and lo straighten (he matter out (or the -Town of Cardston and the Indian people. What recommendation would you make as (lie local MI' if you arc rlcclod? 1IUHL11UKT: I back lo the find oul what the a; Mr. Russell, if von were part if a minority Liberal govern- ment who would you approach form a coalition? RUSSELL: I would be inclined o wait until there was a prob- em where I had to say right now which party I would pre- cr for a bedfellow. The elderly nlways seem lo K lorgollen and any gains :hcy get seem to he in cents raliier Ihan dollars. Whal do you propose lo (lo? RUSSELL: liaises liave not jeen substantial bul they have come up and income tax has also been adjusted for old-Ege people. A married couple get- ing a pension has free. They don't liave to pay any in- come tax on it. The whole thing about pensions is an enigma. The taxpayer is on one side and the rising cost of pensions 3 on the other, and there's a lot of people drawing them. Tlw dollars have to come From somewhere. When you raise the pension, which I think should be done, it can't be done in a spectacular fasliion. The Liberals have raised it as you know hut these raises have to be kept in line with the wishes Ken Hurlburt, Conservative Pacific or liolli? I.: 1 guess So Ihcrc isn't an i.ssuc in lhal. HOFFMAN: How about Ihe issue nf farm price supports? Do you Ihink fiirmcrs arc gel- ting an adequate return for their -services, what Ihcy're producing? nUSSKI.r.: I fliink farmers righ'. now have it about as Bond as Ihty'vc ever h.ul ii. HOFFMAN: Thai's your opinion, it's certainly not mine. Mr. Rnssrll, what do ynu Icrl (lie issues are in tills clcc- lion? RUSSELL: In my view thc environment would be the big issue. The environment ties in- (o absolutely everything wc do. II doesn't matter where we live or who wc arc. This is the hope for our future, really. As fsr as (he application of it lo our production, we are poing to have lo lake a firm stand. I Iliink have a choice when it conies to environmental ap- plication, we can talk about il as wc have done in thc past, or we can do somcllu'ng about il. Our Liberal government has gone further than any federal government we've ever hnd and IhLs is Ihe direction 1 Ihink wc should continue lo take. We've done well hut wc can do bcl- ler. What's your posilion on re- source development in Ilic north and specifically Ihe pin-- lino down the Markrnric Val- ley? RUSSELL; We've got la rec- ognize that the UniUxl Slates is Ha I IIoffnidii. Aril; Dpinocmt. you pay again when you collect it, so this is a form of double taxation. IUJS.SELL: No, there's no in- come Lax charged on the old age pension. I10KF.MAN: Sure, il is. HUSSKLL: No, there's no in- come tax charged. HOFFMAN: Old age securily isn't added to your income las. RUSSELL: Well, yes, bul not charged again on income tax. It's free. HOFFMAN: You look it up. Now lake uncmploymenl insur- ancc.You pay into the unem- ployment insurance and yon pay tax on that money. Then when you collect unemploy-1 beings, nient insurance you pay tax on it double taxation. Now what did they do for the cor- poralions and their sharehold- ers. They said it's not fair lhat our back on people who are in need Wilh regard lo letting the Ugandans in, I'm certainly in agreement that we can't turn our back on people who are in need. I Ihink that dertainly wo should screen the people who are coming in. It's an impossi- bility to know exactly who they are or what they arc going to do for us. or us for them until afler they've been here for a while. But certainly there's rec- ords of most people throughout the world lhat can checked. We want lo bring people in. All of us came in as foreigners at one lime or another. And as such I think we've got lo work these- things out and learn lo ive as good sensible human Hanging Done what Andy? HUSSKLL: luised pensions on a tax-income basis. HUnLBURT: It isn't tied lo he cosl of living, P.USSEI.L: Yes it is. We're paying two per cent on Ihc- cost of living. HOFFMAN: Is lhat realis- tic? RUSSELL: Yes, sure. HANCOCK: Pensions seem lo be one of those things, like, Ihose other gentlemen said, that we seem to ride everytimc1 an election comes along and forget in between. Certainly our old age pensioners don't have enough. Our platform calls for ?2M a month for the old age pensioner with a month for the spouse or a total of a month for a couple. Concerned have double taxalion here. So Ihey gave Ihe Canadian shareholders dividends of one- third tax crcdil. At (he same lime they reduced the corpor- ale lax localise they salt! Ihe dividend holders were already paying taxes. So there we look- ed alter our corporale friends very well bul tho individual was left behind again. That's all I want to say about pensions and double taxation. With capital punishment up for review soon hy the Can- adian govcrmncnl where do each ot you stand on the issue of capital punishment? HOFFMAN: It hasn't really been shown that people stop to consider the punishment when (hey commit a crime. Mosl crimes are committed In the heal of passion. On Ihe face of the evidence thai we have it doesn't really make much dif- ference whether you have cap- ital punishment or you haven't murders uill still occur. Foreign Arc von for or against cap- punishment? icy adequate and specifically HOFFMAN: Except in Is Canada's foreign get along alright. HOFFMAN: Frrst of all, let me say that I'm not afraid of a minority government at all In fad I Ihink- Jf we look ot the record, the Tory govern- ment of Dicfenbakcr with the biggest majority ever had a very high rate of unemploy- ment. IE you look at the Trudeau record of the last four years we have had a very high rate of unemployment. When we look at the last min- ority government under Pear- son, we had low unemploy- ment. In other words, a min- ority government is more tune the needs of the peo- ple. So, I'm not afraid H. r" cf a minority govern) I would say that since ihas three oul of the four i___- inces in the West, a good strong contingent of NDP MPs in the Ifousc fioin the would i give Canada a united voice in il minority situation. As far as aligning with any paiiy, ivc would not sacrifice our principles at any cost. We believe in free cnlcrprise too ire want to see the tiling work. There is no competition today. I would like to ask Mr. Hurlburt if he thinks thai there is competition. Why is il lhat the crummiest jobs pay the lowest wages? If there was compelilion, then those leasl- dKircd jobs would pay highest wages to attract people lo them. The same could be said for big corporations like Gen- eral Motors.Why is it lhat ev- ery year vc get price in- creases? In the area of elec- tion expenses we could never compromise with other parties. We feel thai elections should be paid for by open public nc- connling. paid for by individ- uals. These arc some of Ihe problems where we would be in open confrontation. But I think a minorily government ran function, il has functioned in (he past and we're not afraid of it. of the taxpayer, Afler all (he taxpayers complain bittcriy when Ihe taxes go up nnd the money's got lo come from "o-ir-place. LBUItT: This has been my platform right from the start. It seemed Ihal all poli- liciaus appealed lo the old age pensioners just before an elec- tion so their siluation was re- viewed every four years. M y parly's policy' is that when Ihe Conservatives form Ihe nexl government Ihey will automat- ically raise the payment to 5100 per monlh and it will be tied to the cosl of living index and to be reviewed annually. What Is the pension nou? HURLMURT: JS2 a month. HOFFMAN: Come on noiv fellows, don't include every- body in this business of the pen- sioners always being rorgotlen except at election time. Now, everyone knows that Stanley Knowles (NDP MP for Winni- peg North Centre) has raised this matter in the House every- lime Ihere's been a session. The conference on the aging four or five years ago said Ihal j Jiow do you fee] sinn of people expelled from Uganda? IIUSSELL: I Ihink technical aid is better than cash to for- eign c6untries. Would you increase il? RUSSELL: It may be neces- sary to increase il. But in oilier places where they've already got a hold on an agricultural industry, for instance, wc can slope off. This is somelhing lhat has to bo adjusted. Ycu can't sel a policy Ihnl is go- ing [o hold on for four years. HURLBURT: I'm in favor of leeluiological aid.I think where ever possible we should aid ex- ceptional cases, I'm against. HANCOCK: Basically. I'm in favor of capital punishment. Cerlainly each case has lo be looked at on its own merits but I feel that as long as we're loosening up on these things crime and murder will run rampant, I would be in favor of retaining capilal punishment. I don't think it's been proved since it's been abolished thai it has been helpful lo us. II seems to be going in thc other direc- tion. IH'lil.BlJHT: I'll have to say I would be for it. I can't see, where a policeman's life is worth more Ihan anyone else's law and counlrics with commodities lliatlW" to we produce. 1 Ihink Ihere's wc to llavo u lot of divclopment to be done )u-s scems thal now. in our own country wuhout any liiought, can go out now and shool somebody and RUSSFXL: We offered mil- lions of bushels of wheat lo In- dia and they wouldn't accept it unless wc guaranlced to give Ihe minimum Ihe old people it to Ihcm for so many years, hire a smarl lauyer and gel of! or get out of jail in two or Ihicc years. needed is SHfl a month and Stanley Knowles has moved an amendment in the House to have it brought up to S150 as Ihem a good deal [o put in Hie because Ihoy did not have Ui harbor installations for hand- ling it and it wa.s going to cost RUSSELL: I'm for It In (he .case where a policeman or a p public official is deliberately as- sassinated. an absolute minimum without a means test. So we haven't been waffling on tins issue be- tween elections. Now there are several things about Ihe old age security that I'tl like lo say. First of all, we are committed as B party to month minimum and as you can see in B.C. we are try- ing lo gel a provincial supple- ment of a lolal of S200 a month for pensioners and I agree fully wilh Mr. Hancock that some- thing should be done .-bout the situation where an old age pen- sioner is supporting a wife who is perhaps C3 or so and this adds to the cost, but she's not getting any consideration. We're further saying thai wc ivnuld like lo lower the age of eligibility, not compulsory, but just sayir.g we'd like to lower thc age of eligibility so lhat those who would like to be removed from Ihe work force a liltle earlier and enjoy the last years of retircmenl in a little bellcr health can do so. I might add that wc need lo have pensions with a decent cost of living es- calator. Two per cent is pea- nuls. The cost of living has gone up more than that lately. What's thc agr of eligibility for pensions now? HOFFMAN: It's 65 and we'd like lo lower it at least to 60. RUSSELL: Just a How do you justify moment this with your lower (axes. Where are you going to get the money? Hand on Is HOFFMAN-. I'm glad you i machinery. just couldn't do this. Nat- urally, we couldn't say we'll give you X number of bushels 01 wheat for Ilic next number of years. If it's possible to get into a p'.ace where the need for aid is instant, you can help. Bul this is not always possible. It wasnl possible in India. I1URLBUIIT: Il's still our duly to help people who are less fortunate Ihan ourselves. HOFFMAN: I'm basically Ln agreement wilh Mr. Huiibiirt and Mr. Russell that we should give technical aid. I think where we're helping people to help themselves this is a very What do you mean by 3 pub- lic official? RUSSKI.L: Well, anyone in public, office. For inslar.ce, in the event somebody loos: a shot at our prime minister or some- thing. I don't whether I'd want Ihis quoted because some- limes (his bright ideas in people's heads. I mean where people are delibcrdcly assassin- ated before oilier people and it's obvious lhat this man is guilty and it's obvious that ho did it for reasons that were pol- itical or flu's kind of thing. Bul where the person who has done the KiJbig is definitely de- ranged, I think this man should he (realed. good free enterprise principle. If possible lei's try and give aid in thc form of a barter or- rrmcement. Wc have certain Hangs that are suplus, I think sometimes trade gels si- Air you saying you favor phoned hands. ait into Die wrong How would you pay for llif pxpensr. to raise increased pensions? HURLBUHT: The one really gains through increased wages and more taxes is the government. Kvcrytimc wages go up the government gels more taxes. About the Ugandans and oth- er forms of immigration I Ihink in general our immigra- tion laws are much (oo loose. We have an obligalion to the people coming in licre lhat they know that unemployment is very high and we are maybe doing (hem a disfavor and ccr- lainly our own people a clis- favor if we allow too many peo- ple in. Bul on the other hand, in Ihe Ugandan siluntion ihis is a mailer of humanity first, of compassion for people who are being squeezed out of Ihcir homeland and I think we have an obligation lo them and I welcome them. must not for- lhe People coming from asked Ihal. First of all (here j lj'fianda are largely trained pro- would be no more corporate 'f-'sional penplc and while tr.cv handouts lo Shell, Imperial Oil, [v n lo the em- lo all Ihese big corporations P'oymcnt situation for a short tax deferrals, dcprec i a I i o n "hilc. they v.ill very rapidly capilal punishment in rases of prcmedilaled murder, lull not in casrs of crime committed in Ihe heat of passion? RUSSELL: No I don't think I'm for il all Ihe way because there have bsen limes under the very best processes of Brit- ish law in Canada where inno- cent people have been hung and I'd hntc to be one of those inno- cent people, Andy Russell. Liberal wriic-offs, write-offs thai ale more uncmploymenl rather I very much help Yon wouldn't raise the. mini- mum wage to S2.50 an hour sn you could li.-ivc a Rood tax base? IIURLHURT: Xo I r.cvc-r said that. RUSSELL: This is what the Liberals have done really. thc country. you're fared uilh right oul of the clear blue sky as Canada was, I dc-n'l think we can say no. .Nol if we're goinp to recognize Ihe world as a pretty d.irn small place now. H yo'.u- needs help there s no vi.iy you're na'. tooth comb. Now look what ilo llcl1'' happened. Look at (he old age IIAXrorK: CVrlainly I don't security. Each of us pays a four, feel can turn our'back on per ccnl surcharge on thc lax 1 who ore in need. I firm- table and Iherc is no lax credit ly believe lhat technical aid is allowed for Ihis, Ycl if you pay J one of (he greatest trans ih.ii into a private pension plan. Ihe we could give tn coi'iMries in lax credit is allowed. You pay need, Wilh rcfiard to letting Ihe than more cmplo3'mont. We'd do away with all kinds of things thai like lhat. Bul just let me RO back (or a moment to this old I age security thing. We jiixi wenl Ihrough a tax reform and presumably Ihcy wcnl over this acl with a fine for old age security when you pay on the lax lablo and then Ugandans ni. I'm certainly agreement Hint we can'L lurn ;