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Lethbridge Herald (Newspaper) - March 17, 1913, Lethbridge, Alberta iVioiKlay, Mal'Ch 17,1913 the li5thbbidge daily herald Page 7 THE DEPUTY SPEAKER BECOMES NOISY Second Week of the Navd Debate Ends Riotous Bcetfes the House m m (W�., A; P.; Report;. / ? Ottawa,'Miirolt^ le.r-Iu all probability the house ot commons has never ivitneSsfcd such Violent or prolonged scehiis o� disorder as those which occurred on Saturday evening when the seiJondAPe^H: er thfe deadlock over i^^he naval bill was drawing to its closa. As a result bt a strict application o� the rules, oi the house from midnight on Friday ni^it, the tension had been steadily growing. Appeal altar appeal had been taken by the opposition from decisions' v,i jthe chair, the house having divided not less than nina times. Finally,the floint was reached whea the -disorder bad become so greiat that SpeakJer.Sproule took the chwlr and ruled; that 'discussion must cease until the, member, in charge ot the committee should rule on � point o� order ;,under discussion. Amidst tremendous uproar, verging on a riot. Dr. Clark inslsteil- on putting a question to the speaker, with the result t^t he n-as: "named." Subsequently, on the suggestloir of Premier Borden i' the member for Red De?r, made, an "explanation and the censure was withdrawn. But for the timdy. ^ptipji' of the prime minister, thdifc would in all probability ))ave been a riotv ' Pour Hours Deciding The house had_, been mote or less Hisorderly all evening on either slde= ot the chamher,'. but the climax drew near at''0i30, 'when Mr. Robldouxj of �Kent, Ni'B., vvhb was acting as; chairman of the committee, rose to .his feet, apparently to rule on a question, of' order which had been raised upon his'assun/ing the chair at five o'clock. . rtfhis'poiiiife was to the effect that Mr.vJRobidtlux had no authority to t>;rgsWe,. haying.been called to the cK^i'r'by Mr. Blaln-; of Peel, -who, at that hour was -acting as temporary chairman, of the committees . j ' When Mr. Rol)idoux; rose toi enA the discussion, there wer� loud criea, of jirotest from the oiiposttioir. benoh-it es and Mr. �t'ugsley, ste^jping intd .the; aisle in front !ot his desk, insistedi.^ �that Dr. Neely, member for Hum-, boldt, who had risen at the same-time as the chairman, be allowed to continue the debate. In the uptoat that followed, many members on both Biifles of the cbanjber rose to their feat aniJ there -were many charges and counter-charges. J^uch terms" as "re-hcls," 'iRussiaii nrethods," "shame," "howling mob," ahd "rattlesnakes," were hurled baclf and totth. across the ; order ?" asked Mr, Verville, Maison- G. - H. 'Bolvl (1, hSheffprd, ^ ^ I P. Q. '^MY: STOMACH IS FINE � Mrs, J.Merkhnger, Waterloo, Ont, eathQ8|astica)Iv recommends N�^DmrCo Dyspepiia .T^bUts- Herexperijiice'mitlh tbeu.'M she bntlices it; explains why, I'l. was'greatjy -'troubled with mj; � st�f8'pn�leaseit},t ai}c( c��y.�!� take. e'tpUefti-tlitey. give from heattburn, gatulence, biUousaesa 9ndi'dy�pepila is pfonfpt aa4 permanent. Try pne after iacU meal-^^tUeyJll make you feel like a new,tienj9ji. ."^j c gac. a 'box at' your druggift's compounded by 'the Natioufll Drug and ShemicaUCo, of Canada, Limited. MotttfM}.i^' ' 144 cl^amber. Pandemonium' prevailed. Speaker Sproulo, who a, few minutes before had entered the chamber in his robes of ofUce,: ascended the dais and commanded order. His voice for the time. w,as lost in the whl(;lwind of nolce and oat calls. He persisted, however, to call, demanding that the i|iemibers'take their seats and directing the chairman ot the committee to rule at once ;pn the question before him without .further jjUcstion. In time nearly all the, mem-Ijers resumed their seats, although the noise was but slightly abated. ; Standing in his  JJlaoe, i his : voice audible above the .Uproar, although his words were almost lost ia the confusion, was Dr. Michael Cla'rk, of Red Deer. In his plaioe ol authority with a voice piercing.'^ud. strident, Mr. Speaker Sproule commailded silence. "I will name you, Dr; Clark," he shouted, "tor open defiance of the rules ot the liousd.'' "Name us all," came a' chorus tronri tlie Liberal benches. It looked for the moment as though an appeal might be made to physical violence. At that . momeht premier Borden rose and the din and roar subsided. The withdrawal ot the, speaker's censure followed Dr. Clilrk's explanation., An hour Urter another scene occurred when Mr. Blain was in the cliair and VVm. Martin was speaking; The latter observed that a 'Aild form ot closure had been used. This was objected to by Mr. Blain,: who: demanded that the statement be withdra-wn. Mr. Martin replied that he would not tsike back ai statement which was not unparliamentary and not untrue, lie added that the members -ot 'thb, house had been "gagged.'' This remeiTk ha later withdrew, but he defiantly de-cKnad to withdraw; his rofSreape to closure, unless autVority for such a ruling could be produced. , Conserva4 tives called "put him out," the Liberals retorting by shouting, "try it." Then Another Scene. Another scene of confusion followed and,.agaiin the speaUcr took the chair. We sustained Mrj Blain and commanded Mr. Martin to withdraw. Mr. Martire flatly do so. Again Mr. Borden intervened.and.alter some discussion Mr. Martin,' while . absolutely, dellning to withdraw said that he hid not used, the Tvord, offepsively and., the matter, was allowed to -drop; Then; on the -Bugge9.tlon of the opposition noise. Then Dr..PugBlBy stepped out from his seat and quite a'ngrily appealed to.the chairman-to give Dr. Neely: a hearing. V.The.njembor lor St. ,Iohn was plainly lutlled. Practically; all the .Liberals* rose to their feet and joined in''the-concerted yell "free speech," "frffc .speech." Dr. Pugsley still, remained '.'gesticulating in- front of the chairman and trying to force the recognition- on ^'his appeal to Mr. Robiaoui;. 'From the Conservative s|de came cries ot "order,'' "rebels," "sit down," "shameful," "rattlesnakes," "a howhng mob," and other epjthets. A. R. Knowles, of Mopse Jaw, rose and addressed a question to-.Mr. Borden, to be greeted with cat calls and cries of 'isit down;", etc., from the right hand side of-the spe^k^r- Dr. Neely again madea'n eSWt to^pfct a question answered by the speaker, 'lOrder, ordgr, order," ,emiphasiz;ed vthe speaker, 'who'-.went! on to say when he could be'heard, "l requested the chairman tp'. rule on this point and having done so! .the'debate is closed." " "Will you hear no discussion" asked Dr. Pugsley, Ayhor by : this time h?id returned to hl?'/pe�(.t.,;BeIorp the next remarks ot the. speitkec could. be heard there -werecrios of''no,'.' '"no" Irom the Conservatives and "yes," "yes," from the iiiberals'. �"Free speech.;' QiVo us free speech,"* shouted 'Hon.'Mrl Lcmleux a|d Hottv DC Belind in unison. An Allgarchy, "I say the question is closed and has been aiscussed, fat beyond the visual,'' said, the ;r^dakcr. neuve. .Mr. Speaker; "No, j-.ou cannct discuss it."-' "I will .not submit to that," de-| Glared Mr. ycrvillc. � ,  The noise^ again rose to a deafening pitch.  , ' �'tXtder, order," repeated the speaker,.but little attempt was made by members to fespect, the chair. "You have misunderstood the question of the ' honorable member, for Maisonneuve," shouted Hon. Dr. Be-land. i3pe'a�ker Sproule, liowever, declared to the contrary, tor he said ho had aslied Mr. Robidoux to give a ruling and therefore the debate was closed. "I want the ruling ot the chair and then you can appeal to the house," ho said. At this point Dr. Clark jumped to his teet, to Be greeted with loud applause by thCfLibcrals and a volley ot loud requests from the Conservatives "to sit down." . "Order, order, order," urged the speaker. "1 rise to ask-"began Dr. Clark: "Order," said the speaker. Dr. Clark proceeded to address question to the speaker. "So sureas any member of this house openly' defies the ruling ot the cliair, I shall;, name him, said the speaker. Undaunted; Dr. Clark attempted to submit his question to tlie speaker and the noise that , followed w"as equalled in volume only by that which one hears in aboiler factory. The chamber echoed and re-echoed, with all kinds ot unparliamentary epithets- exchanged by the members of. both sides of the house. Meanwhile the speaker was appealing for order Finding his appeals ignored, he turned to the nirember for Red Deer and said:; V - "Dr. Clark, I name you." , Dr. .Clark,still persisted in his de-site to asW the speaker a question. Speaker Sproule, then after he succeeded in getting some semblance of order, said : "Dr. Clark, I name you as acting in absolute and flagrant violation of the rules of-this house," "Free Speech I Free Speech!" returned the Liberal^, and .the shouting and tumult soared Wgh' once more. ' , Dr. Pugsiey then interjected: "1 ap-p� you, Mr.^ Speaker, to keep or. der od the oilier sldeof the House.a, t)r. Clark then proceeded: 'fThere Is only one place where the authority ot the chair la being defied, and that is on the ciiher side at the House. �With all respect, Mr. Speaker, I ask under what rule you take the chair?" Mr. 'Speaker: "If I understand the hon. member correctly, he aslbi uiider what rule I have taken the chair. It is under the rule which says that when ever any unusual disturbance occurs in the House or- in committee of ..the whole, the Speaker may take the chair at any time In order to g^t the House under control. I have done BO." Mr. Bureau: "-What is the rule"?" At this period Mr, Borden got a' hearing. I am very sorry," said hre, "that the hon. membera ot the other -side of the House have seen fit to give a very painful exhibition, indeed. "I trust that, my hon. friend from Red Deer," he continued; "who is not only a very eane and sensible maiu ot this House, hut also a gentleman, WillT-7'^.......... . Pierre Edouard Blondin, of Cham-plajrHf v�ho never suspected such a whale of a job he liad been given, until the. advent of the naval deadlock. Mr, Lemieux: "Very highly rejected." �Mr. Borden: "Will see fit to make amendment to his,conduct by,making due apologies to the chair, which, under thc circumstances would "^^ thei best ,way." At this point, Dr. Pugsley moved the adjournment of the Hou^e, iut Mr. Borden was not.through with his S'tatpment. "I hope," said Mr. Borden, "my honi friend from Hed Deer -lylll be gopd enough to take into his seriou* consideration the suggestion I have made to blm, and which I make in vfiry good part, Indeed, knowing that he acted under temporary .e'xcitment, and I 'think that he himself-'will be first to regret having participated, in an unusual way In any disorder in: the House." Dr. Clark's Reply ..... After a moment's pause, Dr. wClark replied,: "Mr. Speaker: I have not the slightest �onceptJon-and I am glad that sl^ lence enables me to speak-ln my or-diuary 'tone-I had not the -allghteat conception by the first eenteno'es that-he uttered that the Prime Minister; was referring to me. -If i iralaadvmy voice to double its ordinary pitch,.Jfc was because it was- absolutely; necsj sary. I don't know what my oftnoe The haTaneurnroEd to ''become' was when I asked for dtrectlo� of.the-'^'^^T^Lll&M ,^:'TA^^^^^^^ as to the r^le under ^whlch-' he was: proceeding. That -ifijje not yet been read to'me. Ifi havft said a word 'that can be calculated to, be.of off-fince to anyone I shal)jbe t|!"^| �first :t6-w|ilidiiw;lt.:iv:I oven mgre interesting -yyhen-,the mip isterlal memb'ors :j:epeeit6d;:'th*!ir cries of "order," "sit. down,'"?' if Is closed, while the I/jberal^i led-'by Pr. Pugsley, loudly Insisted'on t]ie right to free speech. ^The .ii�uv>ui� o here be anf disoussloii to -vithdraw-If I havc to anythlrfg nimepesaary i ruled ^opotho'point of to re-establish myself in the good o^V fgo,, Monday Ihlon of the Prime Minister, or if, for any other reason, I have the greate-st pieastire in making any acknowledgment' wbloh he desires me to make in order to be regarded as a him." : � The; Premier Again As .soon as Dr. Clark sat down, Mr. Borden took the t^oov. "I would like," he said, "to bring this matter to a frank understanding with my friend from Hed Deer. The reason that. he. Was named by the speaker was, I think, that he was stnnding when � the speaker was standing, and, calling order. The duty^of the hon. .gentieman iiuder the-rules'-of the House, ivoiiid be to have taken his seat, and that this is the particular to whi6h 1 direct his attention. However, I understand he is to make amends, and I trust that you, sir, under the circumstances will see fit to withdraw what has been done in naming -the hon. gentleman, and we may regard the Incident closed." "I was asked,." said tho speaker, "In following up the suggestion made by Mr; Borden, "by the member for Red Dee'r it I would read a clause. It is as .follows: 'In case of grave disorder arising in the House, the Speaker may, It he thinks it necessary to do �o, adjourn the^ House without question put, or suspend any sitting for a time to be named by him.' ^jg^ I  "I am quoting Engllsb rule No. 16, but ours,is exacfly^the same. I wish to say that at" the" time, I did what was done with  eittreme regret,,but under the circumstances it was the only course that>n�|duly left, open to ma ;The rule is ^^lar and plain that when a Speaker gets Up, It is the duty of hon. members to alt do'wn. Although I repeated the call for order, over and over again, the hon. gentleman refused to sit down, and I-was obliged 'to do what'l'dld. But I frankly say that I accent with great pleasure' his withdrawal'and. apology." Mr. Turlff then suggested au adjournment, but the Speaker pointed out that there was a question ot order before the House, and it must be de. cided before any other business was done. He also pointed out that when the .chairman of the commltteeiwas on his feet, it was not in order for members to interrupt him. Chairman Robidoux again took the chair, and attempted' to give his ruling. A Division He was interrupted by Dr. Pugsley. and, amid confusion, the ruling could not be heard. The Liberals made an effort to continue the discussion, but the chairman was firm, and insfeted that his ruling, which had been again interrupted, would stand. A division, followed, resulting in the chair being sustained by a vote of 2 to 57. After the division had been taken, Mr. Richard Bfain,  of'Peel, took-the ohalr. Mr. -VerviUe, of Maisonneuve, spoke in French, and was follo-yved by Dr. Neely, who saW' that-ae the "Primei J^lnlBter was now In the House, he desired to renew an argument he had advanced during the afternoon as to why the discussion should be suB-i �pended. Hc said that for two -weeks' the House had bee.n allowed to discuss "the clause under' consideration and two amendments, and that the amendments had then toeen declared to be out ot order. For this the Prime Minister must accept the re-Bponslblllty. The result; of declaring them out of order was tbat the whole; discussion had been found to be ir-revelent. The question new was that the public did not knffw where It would find itself when a reason for the action was explained," Mr. Borden replied that when the motion,had been dl&posed of, "the sub sequent proceeding^ are as much within the knowledge of the member for Humboldt as of myself." '� Dr. Neely remarked that the House as much In -the dark.-,aa ever; Surely the Prime Minister had no in-telitlbn bet to treat the House respectfully.' ' '  * J. ; G. Turlff then urged that, in., vylew' o� the long: session, and that; they ^were within one and a half hours .ofLthe Sabbath morning that the coror iojttee should'-rise, and;- Dr. geland spe'aVting In French, pressed the same .view; \ Borden's,Flr i MF? Mai'tin, of Beglna, who followed, first expressed the vleiw that the, .ipohtlniious session -had' been quite ,i}hnejpeflsary.He vsaid that', ar:week,' night :when clause, two had* been under consideration for three hours only, th^ Prime Minister had declined to consent to an adjournment before progress was made. Had Mr. Borden hot taken this action the business of the House would, in all probability, have been further ahead. Th-eats had been made in the corridors ot the House and In the press that the closure would be Introduced. "Well," said Mr. Martin, "it the government intends to Introduce the closure let them come out into the open in true British fashion." Hit on the Raw He went on to say that a disgraceful scene had a short time before occurred when some one on the other side of the House had described the member? of the opposition as "rebels." He would remind the Conservatives that fifty or sixty years ago, the only rebels In Canada were Tories. The Conservative party of today were the political successors of the Tories, who in 147 burned the parliament buildings In Montreal. This assertion .caused an uproar, and Chairman Blain asited Mr. Martin to assist him in maintaining order in the House. "That has always been my desire ever since I became a member," said Mr. Martin. The' member for Regina went on to say that during the Past twenty-four hours the rules oi: the house had been very rigidly enforced, and that during-the day on at least two occasions a mild form ot closure had been introduced. He added: "it was not so very mild, either." Ciiairman Blain was instantly on his feet, with the' demand that Mr. Martin would withdraw hla statement. Mr. Martin said that he had every respect for the rulings given by a chairman of the House so lone as they complied with commonsense. He repeated his assertion that closure had been applied In the House. "I do not intend to withdraw the statement that closure was applied, because It has been," he asserted. Again the chalrinan called upon Mr. Martin to withdraw. Nothing Doing "In order to withdraw, I would have to say what is not true, and I do not intend to do that," declared the member for Regina, The interchange with the chairman was attended by a seenc of disorder. The group of Ldberal members sitting near Mr. Martin shouted in unison "Do not withdraw!" "Your language is parliamentary!" while from the other side of the House came the repeated and; angry demand that Mr. Martin should obey thtf order of the chair, as well as cries of "Report him to the Speaker!"- The tunault died down for a moment, when Mr. Borden rose to i-emark that there was a definite rule of the House to the effect that a member must obey' an order from the chairman. "t/et us discuss this question in a: reasonable manner," said Mr. Pugsley; In his usual suave tones. "The member for Regina has,only said that the discussion! was shut off. There Is nothing offensive in that. The Speaker today on two occasions ordered the chair to put the ques'tlon and would not allow; further discussion." ,.Repeated the Word . Mr. Martin then deliberately repeated the statement that a mild form of closure had been applied. He would not withdraw a word unless it was shown that the remark was untrue. "I win put it stronger," he said, "and will say that an attempt was made to gag this House." The chairman demanded that both statements be withdrawn. "Bid you say that the word 'gai, was unparliamentary?" asked Mr. MarUn. "�y-es," ^aid the chairman. '"Then I -withdraw it," said Mr. Martin. He declined to wlthdriiyir his statement with regard to the clqeure. "I find,' said the chairman, "that no form of closure Is provided' for In the rules'ot the House." The statement wag greeted with much po^inding of desks 6.M oheerliig on the part of the opposition. . "We admit th^t," said Mr. Marl;In. "but a form of closure was adopted on two different occasions.' I said and I absolutely refuse to withdraw that statement." One Awful Threat "If the hon. member does not withdraw, he must not continue his speech, and if he does not suspend his speech I will report him to the Speaker," said the chalPmah. _ ; Threupon the member for Regina emote a bound volume Of Hansard which was lylqg on his desk -Wltli his right hand, and shouted: "I absolutely refuse to withdraw: The statement was true, and the expression was not unparliamentary." "It the hon. gentleman does hbt withdraw I shall be obliged to name him," said Speaker SproUle, r' "Russia! Russia!" shouted the Liberals, while Mr. Martin' remained In his seat. Dr. Belaud argued that the question before--the House was one of the fact only. Premier Borden then rose, and said that with the consent of the House the hon. gentleman who was leading the Opposition might be allowed to say something. Mr. Graham said that the difficulty would appear to He in the fact that, during the dtscuBBlon in, committee, rules had been applied in a. manner -which the Opposition, reifarded as closure of a certain kind, He considered that the chairman w^ wrong in regarding the word as offenalve. Mr. Martin was unable to see that it was offensive. ��; : '; ; Mr. Borden said he would agree to the proposal on the underatendlng tliat he would be permitted, to'make a few remarks. Mr. Graham .nodded his assent, , ..... Mr. Pugsley then formally' the motion which he made at five;.'O'clock In the morning that the chairman should leave the chair,'and Mr. Borden moved that the committee rise and report progress.-, ; i IVIartin Won.Out "I have endeavored to be perfectly fair, but I would like the hon. gentle-. men to remember that,;wblle the m'u-orlty have rights in this Hous-e Which much be respected, the majority-also have certain rights that are equally entitled to reepect. Kara not gplng to characterlae In any way what;:baB| take place In this committee,,'I,.would prefer to do so by using the wo'ide In, which "W. B. Gladstone d'ascpibed'Obstruction: 'It is not a Ye^y;8a^y;. matter to describe obBtruotIo'h,ran'd I will not attempt to define lt-,fo^,:any one, but myself, I will only'''glvc a,description Of it. To me it wPears ito Louis A. Lapointe, St. James. (Montreal) be the disposition either of the minority of the House or of individuals to resist the prevailing will of the.: House otherwise than by argument.!'': Mr. Borden also quoted a definition of Speaker Brand's, as '.'the abuse .ef the privilege of freedom of debate for the purpose of defeating the will of Parliament." "We will probably have to discuss this subject later," Mr. Borden said. "I am sure that every hon. member on the other side of the House *111 realize that until possibly twentyrfour hours ago, the most absolute freedom was permitted." Dr. Pugsley: "Does my right hKjn. friend think that going,day and nfght Is freedom of discussion?" Mr. Borden: "All measures that come before Parliament should be sure of reasonable discussion.. If some measures at the opening of the eession taJde up all the time, -the measures which come late do not re.^ celve^mucb consideration." Hon. George P. Graham opened ;^;6i^-, reply by recalling Mr. Borden's, etatei ment that th'ere were two sides to ev-' ery quesUon. , . jj^., , "Human nature Is .perhaps stronger; In the members to the left of; ;-Mri Speaker, because they are ther^ jtO: � fight, And when members of ano^^o-i-sltlon nearly as. letrong in numbaik ' -and, I might say, stronger insome.': other ways-know that they must^itsr. without eaiting or sleeping, excepit. from six to eight each evening,MeaVe; it to any hon. gentleman opposljte; who has a spine in him if he woul^^ not revolt?  "My right bon. friend has said that the raajorlty must i-ule. I admit tj|iat absolutely, but a minority also ias; rights, and I 'think they, would nofi'^e,'; unreasonable it they were recelvfiig; reasonable. trecitmeiit ^frem the^v i^^^ Jorlty. My rlgbf hon.'friend i^ia} pointed out In calm language that;#s :; intends to use 'the constitutloi&l authority given him, even if he hasfsio'i; go. a long way. That Is his prlvll.ejpr,', We on this side have,some oonWlj&-; tlonal rights as well, and we propq|jB,!; to exercise them as etrongly as we can. , . . "I trust," concluded Mr. Orahamt "thaifc we will be in as good fightlM trim and Ir ibetter humor on MondayV'- The Houjo adjournei at 11.30. . 'f 1 1 vfi^ A lec. Ogar w;atch the ash In seme "Flor/4�,CUro" Cigar?,'there axt .aluminum tags ' stamped "2sc."-