British Press, October 18, 1820 : Front Page

Publication: British Press October 18, 1820

British Press (Newspaper) - October 18, 1820, London, Middlesex , LOivbON, 'Wm^1SSfyWy^'WF^H^S, 1820. Pkh;k 7d. >j^his evening; wednesday, bet., 18, Jt win be revived Shakspcai'pV Play of dYMBfeLINE. Britons-Cymbermi?, Mr. Egerton ; Polyilorp, !VIr.' Ab-bolt; Ckilwali Ml-; Dnruget; Cloten, M r. Farley ; Morgan, JMrr Chapman;; LflcMialus Ponthinnns, Mr.C. Kemble (his first nppearaiire in that cliiiracter). ftumans-lachimi), Mr. Macready (his first appearance in ihat character); Cains Luri.is, Mr. Vales; Varun, Mr. Jef. ferien. Quei^n, Mrs. Faiicit ; Helen, MiitsShaw; Jpiogeu, MisB Fbote. After wfaicb, GarricfsDramatic Jtonance-of CY..MOJJ.. Merlin, Mr. ^-erlon; Cymon, Mr.,Duru!>el; iDorjis, Mr. Listori; Linco, 'Mij.Taylor.' Sylvia, Miss Greene ; f^atima, Mr8;iGibb�^ Dorcas, Mrs. U�ion. ' Doring the recess OifeTJieaire has been entirely new de-cofat ed. an d: tmbetlislied. ...AlVAvattifioximty beobad for tfae^Seasou, or nigblly, of ajr,JJra^idoiij at.tbe Box-jOffic*., , Places for ihe'Boxe^ to be taken, of Jlilr. Brandunj gt 4be ftw4?ffit^#aH->tfM^TiW:,Tetf  A Private Bojr'may be Sad, nightly, by auplicaVion at the Box Office. , ; Boxes, 7a ; Second Price, 3s. 6drucerdiiigs aijainst her Majesty Ihe Queeii.-I'lie p;ipeis were ordered to he printed. The Counsel werelhen called in. TJie Jjird Chaiicelliir then proceeded lo inform their I^ird-ships that lowards.ihe close of the pruceedinBmli>S!>uining 'what need not be qii^s-tioued,:lbal iheibail; offered lemplalions to wituesse* lo�p-|iear-TSiip|M)aiiig also that Bo Jirtwf tovldibe madeuuf^lbpt any of ihei .vainesses .wlip'hnij ;be(;n examined ;.for the |vg.| sPcniioii' ha^ beeii corrtipted; in such a; cose coVIJ" eridtecc' JJi-'admiited. Id Aew Ibaf auy 'atlcmpt' blld lieeiji inftde ^ lo'Wrrtipl'^ the' wituipies' iflitf �pjie�rtd SriheiSS^/w^^^ rr�^-7p,i.TiM q,ce�. aid be were .be prosecutor, rxamlned in chief for the Plaintiff in Ihe civil action or in support of'the chargesof the indictment, from which it wss lo I.e inferred.Ihal.A.iB. had been employed to roMecf witnesses for the Piainiifl' or the prosecnlion, and if the Defendant in a civil, action or under indjclment, offered (itoof Ihat A. B. had gone'abiuit lo induce C. D. to give.roiropt testimony in support of Ihe civil action or criminal charges, no witness called as a witness in thief for the indiclmeni, ,orlhe civil action having imdri-'ieroas-pxartiinslion jiven .any proofiif A. B.'s corrupt agency, wonld the practice ofihc Chis question as information'necessary .to satisfy Ihe doubts and scruples of his own mind, which, he admitted, the House was bound to consider, he bad no ohjeclion lo the queali'nn being referred tii the Judges. Bat he must repeat that wbirh he had observed yesierday, that if Ihe Jndges'shonid decide that the' praeiice of their Courts would not ndmlt' sdrli evhlenec as had been'offer, cd, standing in Iheir present sjluatiao, under ibe- pcen. .li!��'!.cjr�w*>siaTice� whicb ^ had. copie lo� their. ^kuoKj leugc tb>y were- boitud to go into the investigation proposed. He niusi, therefore, whiKver might be the de-icisiort of the Judges on the question, still urge their Lordshifis lo pursue .tlie inquiry. The Case was neither .more nor less lhau that of yesterday. The facts were slrongerthan before, but the material question was ihe same. If Ihe strict and technical rules of other Conns excloded such infurmaiion from the evidence, Ihe rnle mnst be applied equally lo day as yesterday. For though Vilmar. call was an active agent in Ihe business uf the Com. mission, in whirli Colonel Brown and Mr. Powell had been cn2aKeil process evidence should be tendered of attempts lo corrnpl Juslice by procuring false lesli-muny, whether Ihe admissiuii were fixed on piinciples or nol, Ihe ends of justice required Ihat ihey should not lurn Iheir backs on the inquiry into thai evidence. If they did, they would nut appear in the eyes of Ihe public in do ihiil justice which it was their wish, as ii was llieir duly, lo �xecii le. The Earl of Liverpool said that he had no doubt his Noble and Learned Friend would have 110 ohjeclion lo siiikc out those lernis uf bis question whirh included the ci'iisideraliuii of a civil action, lie reserved his opiiiiuii on the other branch of Ihe qneslion itiiiil he heard that of the Jmlges; but he tlinughi he could easily point out the fnl-hicy, if he mighl use ihe term, of llie Noble EhiI's propo. silioii for going iiiio a rase of general corriipliou, having no appliealloii in)io'eili:i)cly lo ihe case before ihe House, and nol being of awy wviahi, if proved, to affect the issue of Iheir proceeding. This was a rriminal proceeding, and Ihat only. He could have no objection al any other lime to go iuio an inquiry as to the coiidoci of the Milan Cummissiiin; hui was ihis Ihe proper time lor that inquiry ? The Noble Lord said, that if Ihis >vas a quesliou of suborning wilucFses in the cause, ooghl not the Counsel lo be al-hmed to examine to i( ? He was ready to admit, if it could be shewn that any wilness had been corrupted who had been examined before them, then (speakingditfidently as an unprofessional man) he would allow such cvnlence mighl be ad-milted. But Ihe question here wn�, nol of a conspiracy to corrupt witnesses who had appeared at Ihe bar, but to corrupt witnesses that had not apjieared to give eviileiire for the Bill. That one conspiracy would not be equnlly iniquitous as the other he was not contending; but all he would say was, Ihat was not the question before them. He Iboiight that Ihe agency .should he clearly proved, and ihat Ihe witnesses ought to be some of those who had bceu examined al Iheir Lordships' bar. What he priucip.illy rose . for was to impress on Iheir Lordships one considerutioii.- If they were-to go into an inquiry as tu llie conduct of the Milan Commission, he llioueht some nniire oii:;lil to have been given to Vilmarcali aod lo Colonel B.own, and whtther it was possible to admit Ihe evidence now offered withnut admitting all the evidence which Ihey might think proper lo offer in explanation of iheir conduct; that be considered would follow ,18 a necessary consequence of ihe admission of such leBlitnony. He had no objection lo Vilmarcali and all 'the Commissioners heiug railed to the bar and eximiiied, bul the donbt he had was whether it would be relevant lo Ihe present inqiiry. \Mt& Erskine said, that he not only had nol changed the opinion which he had delivered yesterday, hut having considered Ihe case, and recalled to bis memory ibe practice and prinriplea which were ouce familiar lo his mind, he was ron-firrord in the upinion Ihat his Noble Friend (Earl Giey) waBrlie8 ^as' well aa he could. So In the presentiwse:Uhey'.'misM-first prove Ihe arts of conspiracy ag.iin�t,ber ftlsjesiy by Vi|niarcati, and afterwards bring it liume l(> Coionr| Brqwu ,iind the others if ihey could. It w'aa not iicCESsary to prdve the an. tluiriy being given to brilfc ; ta't ^Jbii ninst tirpye the acta tif the agent, and that was^iiffirient; ' Ithtidbeen-said; that Ihis reliited Itt witnesses not examined'at their Lordships' bar; but on referring to the evid.siice, .vaiiqus acts , uf subornalion were proved agaiuslRastelli, and how could it he known that the witae84rB':wno had b^n, exaihined were not alsu blasted and'corrUptd .in ibe sameinaiSoer -b's those he had dealt wilb ? Be tboiit|bt.lhey wirfl-'(.Hear)- for he judged that no persii^iS^)^^'se,;who bepeiVTVerpetV!^let ;(heir jLordsbipi ilMvetiBixdunleil ;it L B bigb crime,-ana ft daring breatjb ;uf ihe ipriv^^l^Kcs of iliat I House ? Auil wddid ibey ubi bare adoptet] eterjr ineans  Ihat b^ered, and ptirsned every cdrirte Ihiit promised ''^'f^ to the proof of such guilt ? When a'conspirac'y l� iftcvive them byfdtiie evidence was-denounced,' he cbiild-nol I�i�t Ihinfc ibeir Lordships were honiid 16 g;a into.''4he proof of lhal conspiracy, whether it were, the act oftbc.:p3rly proinoting the Bill or of bis agents, or not. Tbe eviiitence before'Iheir Lordships bad establislied the agency of VilnJar-tali as c'onnrcfed with Col, Brown; Mr. Powell Bad iuu, by.avuwing himself as itm agent. Tberrfore the rircnm-stances he had just sUled, Ic'ft no doubt of ihe agency. That saved him, in some degree, from the iieeeasity of'goib? into be'consifteriiion of the extraordinary qncstion. which bad been started, beibec ' Ihe Milan Commitsion'-was-not totally 'uncunneGlrd wilh; and. allogether olien.ilo Ibis cause-;! If .tliey--were fonnd lo be employc�l,I�fiV�hem-selves or l|iabt-of eobipiraey cou|^'exfst;.::aini>be' tMaiila�i jMJ^nfi, Jafeljt f)br..'4ihy-^ii froinJiiimilarcoiuiuracy.'^aiai^lb^^ now 10 go into Ibe proof of that which was here.den6qnced. If persmu were alluwed In go abroad and collect witnesses iu a foreign country-to lake Ibeir depositions-to swear Ibejn lolbnae depositions; and if, upon the ground ofUheir not being-a party to any measure founded on sucb evidence, they were to be coasidered as so far alien to the cause Ibal no evidence of any corruption of which ihey might have been guillycould he admitted on the proceedings in support iif such meaiuref he would say that would be to narrow their proceedings hy rales nol of law, hut of injustice; and Ihey would act disgracefully, and in a manner highly derogatory from Ibeir own character, and degrading tu the justice of the country. I.,ord (Manners in a few words expressed his opinion, that a person employing Commissioners abroad 10 do lhal which he could nut do himself, became hound hy the acts uf snch Commissioners, and also of Iheir agents. But ho wished to have the opinion of the Judges on the leg.-il queslion, nnl their Lordships might afterwards consider how fur that ought to bind them in Ihis particular case. The Earl uf Donnughmnre said, lhal if he thooghl every person who had taken the same part as he had done in respect of this Bill, was lo he put down as approving of the conduct of the ageuls of Ihe Milan Commission; if these feelings were lo be allrihuted to those Noble Lords who sup-pnrleil the Bil', be for one wuiild not have been an advo-raie for it. He had always looked on it as a grand and im. porlant inquiry, aod h'c was happy that they had the assistance of Ihe Learned Judges. He did not agree with Ihe Niible and Learned Lord when he said, llie greater Ihe iati. lude which was given to the evidence the more he would be satisfied. It was only what was proper lo he done in Ihis great cause they were to cunsidfr; they were silling as the greatest tribunal in the country, assisted by tlie Learned Judges, and if Ihey received improper evidence it would belaying down a pn cedent for the Courts below. Adinil-tiog this person was an agent uf the Milan Cnmniissioli, and bad misconducted himself, were Iheir Lordships prepared 10 visit his gnill on those who had presented this Bill to their Lordships ? They were nol silting for the purpose of trying o conspiracy, but of coming to a just eonclusion on the evidence in support and against the Bill 00 Iheir iSble. Hereafter if il was necessary to inqnire into the conspiracy, he would enter into Ibat inquiry, and pay as much atienlion, and give it as much assistance as any Noble Lord around him, and he was convinced if ibal inquiry ever did lake place, lhal Ihe Noble Earl with Ihe blue ribband (Liverpool) would come out of it perfeclly unsullied. They were now in possession of who were llie parlies iu this case; ibcy knew who the accused was, and ibat the accusers were the ftliiiisters uf the Crown. It certainly was very happy lhal ihat dilHcully bad been got over.-(A latiffh)-His Lordship said be wuuld repeal that il was very happy that the diffirnlly had been got over, for il would save iheir Lordships from hearing qiiolalions on the subject both in pruse nnd verse He was far from not adinitling Ibal those quotations shewed great abilily, whether they were seliscted by the person using Ihem, or foriiishcd lo bini by some kind friend, he cuuld nol help saying, thank God, Ihe cause for using Ibem was over I Earl Grosvenor-This certainly is a subject of the greatest importance, in whatever view it w.is considered, and he . would very shortly st-ile his reasons for the opinion he had come lo. He agreed it was important, at all times, lo have the opinion of Ihe Learned Judges ; but he would tell Iheir Lordships, let the opinion of the Learned Judges be what it might on this subject, be would be slill of opinion that the question ought lo be put lo the witness. He had not before staled his opinion on this subject, because il was much belter done by his Noble Friends near him. He would nol disguise his real aeiitimeuts ; lie always thought tiie present proceeding was contrary to Ihe Consiilutiun of the country, and of all law. Having made up his opinion on this must material pllowe(l as closely as possible the rules uf Ihe Courts beluw, as 10 giving evidence, and if the rules df the Ctiurls helow were nut goud, the suoner they Wire done away with the bclier. II tlie question was put to the Judges, whellicr such, evidence would be admilled into llie Ciiurls below, and lliey decideLl Unit it mighl, would il not be ulore s-.itisfaclury 10 Iheir Lurilshiji-;, who mighl entertain some slight iloubts uu the sulijei-t, than if they had come to ihat decision wtih'jiit ibe opniuin of iheLeanieil Judges? So on ihc other side, those wljo hid Jouhf^ whether the evidence ought nut lo be reccived,wnuld ihey not be more satisfied if ihe Judges dcciilcd lhal it was not tii.bi^ received, asit would put an end lo lhei^ douhls?' Alihou;li much had been said about Bills of Pains and I'm^lties, ihey had nulhiiig to do wilh Ihe subject in discussiun. Some of ihe witnesses had given evidence which, he admilled, w:)s very suspicions, and ought to be watched narrowly; yet the language Ihat had been used regarding theni was Unjust and improper. If.the Iwo Houses of Parliament cuniil be bruugbl to be guided by the rules of the law of evideace of the CuUriB below, in cases uf the Bills of Pains aud IVnal. lies, it would be a proud day for the counlry, aud hereafin-hc would net be sfraid lo say, Ibat it would he said that :t Bill of Pains and Penalties was the most lenient way of proceeding as it regarded the accused. Aluch had been said oil the decision their Lordships hail come 10 yesterday.; on Ihat occasion he had staled, if liic Judges were of a cuii-trarj opinion to hini he wonld be satisfied ; Ihat that was -i question that he felt no doubt oil, and therefore he did not press for Iheir or..iaioii ; but here lie had a iJoiibi, and a con-siderableoue, for which reason he would nol follow ihe same course. There were doubts siilKcieiit in his mind on Iht* subject for him to move that lie qiieiiiou should be put to the Learned Judges for their decision, whether in a cniiiiiiai case A. B. could give evf^enee as lu CD, nut a party 111 Ihe tase, offfriug a bribe to E- F. lu give evidence against ihe accused ? The Marqnis of I.ansdowa objected lo the question beings sent to the Judges fii put lu the Learned Judges for Iheir opinion, and ihey h.ul given it, their Lord.hips went from ihat decisun, aud put another quesliou lo the witness. It was to be found ii( p-agu 46-2 uf the minutes. The question' was put to Sacchi by lAs Majesty's Attorney-General, * Did any one Of the IVlarreMis in L.onilon make any proposition lu you, as lo your not curbing forward as a wilness against the Queen r' He would ask what was Ihe object uf this question? It could be for ho oilier purpose than to discover if Marietti was au agent dftheQueeu. Now I ilo contend that in substance you did bring out precisely that which the Counsel under the upiuiun UI' Mi-Judges were not periiiilled to bring out, namely, ilo-iur.-versaliun that passed between Sacchi and Marietti. Ii un's f.tv no olher reason but ihat suspicion arose iu your Lun:-ships' mind, lhal Marielli might be an ageut uf the Queen, aud unduly employed, allhuugb thrre was no proof of such employment, your Lordships were induced, fur the purpose of eliciliug Ihe truth, tu discover what passed bitween Marielli, ill cuuversatiou wilh Sacchi, on this subjeet. My Lords, I say, when it is supposed and allegid by the Counsel at the bar, ibat they can prove Ibe exisieiice of a cnnapi� racy, il is your duty lo admit il lo be gone into at the time when it is must important. Can auy Nuble l..urd suppose lh�l Ihis alleged conspiracy ought 10 be inquired into, and yet contend ihat it ought nut lobe inquired into now ?- f Hear, hear J-I say, if it is nol inquired into now, that it never can he iuquirid inio at all-{Hear, hear-J-If il is inquired iiitu herealler, nuue of. Ihe good < ffecis can result frum it. Gouil God, my Lurds ! if a conspiracy has existed foe Ihe purpose i.f producing evidence against ibe Queen, are we upuii lhal evidence tu depose the Queen, and having deputed her from Ihe throne, are we lo turn ruund and say, now we will inquire inlu the conspiracy ?-(�o<)

Share Page

Publication: British Press

Location: London, Middlesex

Issue Date: October 18, 1820

RealCheck