British Freeholder And Evening Journal (Newspaper) - October 21, 1820, London, Middlesex a Jm was In of who io .be Her question lUc J were J that it ought to that was some aceni of the be by that he might in the business than he ought lo have When had reason to a conspiracy and the Counsel the bar offered lhat how they refuse to enter into the not to he inquired were proceeding in a to the 4)tten the founded on evidence was have obtained by and Were Lordships lo pass the lo send it to the oilier and then the royal and deposed her an the by which slie had been so perhaps had another and that be proved to be anri that she had been and the never did sp Were lo remedy conid they no than to divorce the King from his and to the injured and Caroline her rank aad Lordship concluded a very able by that vote that the question should not he put ttr the fiOrd KING road part of the iu agency was he had agreed give - litres a day to a w Lordship he should vole the to the Judges in whatever shape it but he that ihe part of ihe evidence in proof of should be in the words from Lords and The LORD agreed to adopt of (I and insert it in the The question w-s Ihen the who ' past two o'clock the Judges und ' The Lord CHIEF JUSTICE staled to the that iit and his thought it necessary lo have for the consideration of the question to lord Chancellor having stated this request of the Judges to the that Lordships should now he of CARNARVON said the technical part of in his to do with the conduct their were lo It was required of them by Ministers that they should give up a human and then inquire they were or wrong in doing It was wasting time to be questions of law to the it wasa waste of that lime wbich should be devoted lo the Lord siid he had a supplementary proposition to was lo legalize the question against wh ch their had decided It was to the rules or evidence of a conspiracy to witnesses not be except as far as to the prosecutor by will general such a conspiracy be in the tirst received preliminary step to the of criminal proceedings against the his agent i The LORD thai though he might the of the Judges under such he fell bound to propose that this question should submitted to their 1'iie additional question was then to Ihe Jud ges the House at tuo FOURTEENTH DAY OF THE OCT. 18. The opinion of the Judges was against the on which they were directed to being The waived the and was called in. Mr. GuRNEY read the minutes of the evidence given by the witness on Mr. wished that the questions and answers should be to the or Mr. Gurney lead Examined Mr. You stated that told you to bring him the papers belonging to her Royal Did he any inducement w bring those papers tohl me that he would give me and give me more emolument tlum my ' ' Did he state the nature of the employment he give you in the of Did yon possess yourself of any of her Royal and take to The objected to the Did in of your conversation with any thing with the papers of her Royal Highness on following dayl brought him Did say any thing about the time you should go to his office He told me to call in the Did he mention any time in toe evening after sun - Did upon other take aay papers to the Princess For how long a period were you in the habit of taking het Royal Highness papers to Toe Solicitor objected to many did you take papers to do not know many hid you do it frequently What papers did you give respecting the affairs of her Royal What affair of her Royal Highness affair now Did Reganti know in whose employment you inew for had come to my house afier the Secretary of and I was the Secretary of Did thing mora that he wias a person nothing did not see his A him on the following held a the on the df the against w I When did disclose to taken these the 27l.h''July. What year Do you mean 1820?... Was that the first time you informed Describe Col. Brown's are there any goods sold there is a shop on both sides of the What goods are in the the lieft Is a on the right a dealer in What does Reganti sell and said he had no further questions to examined by the Solicitor How bng were you in the service of Codazzi and a V Were you all that time Down to the time to the 27th of did he turn you out of his service Have you ever been in his employment since Do you mean to swear that from the 27th of down to the present time you never have been in the employ of Codazzi can. swear it a thousand When was it that you first went to the Advocate of last Can you tell us the day of the don't know the Teli us about the was end of the Did yoa know at that time that was employed in the process against tier Majesty I went I knew Did you know was in possession of papers of her Royal had them in my own Did you as in communicate this request to go to to your master Did you not conceive it your duty to do thought at the time I could du no Did pay you anything for the papers you delivered the first gave me three double golden and told me were for me to take a chop pay you for the second parcel you gave him Four single When you took the third parcel what did he pay paid me for them at another Having carried papers for so long a and having been paid by did you ever communicate the circumstance to Codazzi never said anything to Did you not think that you were acting a most infamous part in soiling those papers to did not at the When did you discover that this conduct was base arid infamous the beginning of tins ' Was ir. a discovery df your own that this conduct was base and or were you told it by another person arc mho act and dad do and so have having repented in vou afterwards delivered to a list of were five or six and I wrote their Did pay you for that I gate him the Did Reganti pay you did not give the list to hut to How long after this did your hear of it On the same day that I gave the list to I told it to ' With the exception of the did you deliver any other paper to after December Will you swear that positively hundred Did you ever after that offer papers to never called till Colonel Brown sent me. made his last payment when Colonel Brown sent me to towards the end of What sum did you last receive from at the end of March twS livres and a half of Are you quite sure that was at the end of Will you swear Colonel Brown did not ask yon who and that when you refused to tell he shut the and said you should not quit the room until you told who you were swear thai is not not Colonel on your giving him the say you were a most infamous and that you would end by being hanged shall be not for J Hot said so. That it not an answer to the it is not what you but what Colonel Brown - The question was to which the witness I again it is not He gave me the but he said no he shut the door of the room in order that we should not be and he told me not to speak so and he bd me call again on the nest and he would cause me to receive 200 franco Did he on shutting the say you should not go out until you told who you were is a liar if he says so. I swear it. Did not Colonel Brown say you was a most have repeated it many he did not say so. Did he not say you would end by being hanged never said so. Did he not say something to that lie did I have been seduced by and they are more infamous I am. I called twice on Colonel the first time he was not at home I often saw hini since at f saw him at but It was about the end of March this I took lo Col. Brown two or three Having said that you discovered for the first in the month of that it was infamous to betray your I want to know if you consider it infamous to swear on your what is not true swear the truth is What is I and what said I am ready to I told Codazzi these facts on the 27th of and he immediately dismissed me. What are you to have for coming will receive I come hereto remedy my and speak the I swear I do not expect any compensation for coming I swear it is to remedy the evil that I come and tor no other motive I have not seen Codazzi since I left his He never sent fur me. I do not know that he is still How do fon or eight tunes at the i employed for her Royal Hid you were Clerk to Codazzi when you the papers He inew By whose desire did you don't know the with about taking them? to bring to him all I taking these often did you receive money for taking papers her Highness Were you satisfied with money you got from f. ' - you ever to that you did enough froin tor taking papers to him worn complained did Colonel Brown say to you on making this told me that he was a friend to and t ought hot to doubt but would pay me what he in consequence of this conversation with a fresh application to Brown told ree td following and be would give me call on receive any from him ' live in Did he hve there when you took papers to live when 1 first took to he lived in the lane of the Rue Wiere Cot the the eastern iJo you know the the do To what subject did the papers rehite which you took to The objected to the you know what papers to of ' Subject they to was the bad been Vienna with Aji the ' witness was t want to know what papers related werf of witnesses 9,..Not among the Thiey the ' tiie were there any or or What other papers were there besides letters tSe Answers of the advocate 51 Answers of to Any other papers * know what subject of told them was not return before he 8a#4htiHWB*.W> 6aoeb.efore, ' The that - The LORD tirt of the answer a Did any not Were you examined by Codazzi on the 27th July him of my own accord the whole And Codazzi wrote it down 1 in my own The he had closed his Re-examined by Mr. I am twenty two years of It was oh the day following the with Colonel Brown that I received money from It was after that interview that I gave the list of The whole sum I received was to 400fiadcs. The LORD CHANCELLOR asked if any Lord wished to ask the witness any No questions the was ordered to Mr. now requested might be by Mr. I know a person of the name of His Christian name is he sells &c. When 1 went to his he had always something to tell me. On that occasion what did Reganti do went to beg and Reganti said to I belonged to the Barona have you ever seen there courtesies between her Highness and Bergami Now is the time to to gain and become a that I had He Have you not seen the Princess on and Bergami put his hand under her I told was a perfect instead of he paid her all possible respect and decency which was due to that great gave dp going to his me so much pn the - Cross examined by the Attorney I do not the time precisely when the I had mentioned took He said u so that i can mention no particular He went even so far as to say be would wage war against Several persons were iit the I could name Antonio the others I I Barrali present at such conversation only ' Did any thing more said I could say nothing of her Royal she wasa most just and charitable By at the balls tii the Barona you the day Were your daughters there because I hare got you to say the other that you had stipulated fbc a livre a day for your and haJf said witness mentioned in. not meaning but infant I liad a son years of and others wae under iL I had but they are and examined bir Mr. I come from Before I was in the Now I am a manager of I know Paolo who is manager of ft knew him in I was at a in Venice of St in the month of two letters one 1 saw of After and I yrent p five or six 4^ponte4. for the use of place of the to look for 6fib," caine to the was a I waited an 14i^W)d ant Wlule we thv tbe there about ' ' for - - when he met and said hb was They did not but The name of in was 2angla went of now of an eame down double and they as I mean 80 told ine House between the witness not ' in of the and he prove tbat the Witness had told by Jie as if he would make a deposition against the It was necessary to proceed step by 8tepi-as.it would be impossible to by any other p. ' Mr. Tyndale followed bn the same After some observations by and Mr. Brougham rose but it being four the House FIFTEENTH OAY OF THE f oct. 19. The resumed proceedings at ten o'clock this Counsel being called in. ' CHANCELLOR that he had it in comi mand from the House to inform that the question on which the debate arose yesterday could not be put in the present stage of the - ' Mr. that there was another on which he wished to have their Lordships whether it should be put or He understood their Lordships to have decided that he could not ask the witness Meoni to tell what told Meoni had been said le him by Col. Brown -in that himself miist be called to prove the ration of Brown to Earl GREY was of opinion that her Majesty's had aright to pursue the course in which they had interrupted it was perfectly consonant with the opinion given by the Lord ERSKINE that the Judges in stating that there must be some of the deleace of did not certainly allude to the original Such a defence might not be at it might arise out Of the or out of any newly to the knowledge of the And he would to the the Noble Earl upon such a case newly it would be right or to oppose Counsel in opening what this new case Lord DARNLEY the difficulties thrown in the way of her must have rendered it impossible for her Counsel to at the period ol opening which might arise in the course ot the and that might be calculated to establish the crimes that had neyer been in the contemplation of those employed the He hoped seeing the insufficiency of in of the and that so many things had arisen to throw discredit the their at no very distant give up the case as the only expedient bv which substantial justice could be 'The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had expressed his reasons for differing from their Lordships the subject of receiving their Lordships had thought proper to It was a painful thing for him to be placed in such a but he should never cease to that no no should prevent him from conscientiously performing what he considered to be his Williams said it had never been intended to prove the crime of conspiracy by against who were concerned in the Milan The evidence he had called was to effect and hot Col. and he was glad that their now understood and that no reply would be made to what had been A conspiracy existed without the knowledge of the Milan The circumstances of over to collect ha excited an appetite for profit in many and their knowledge the conspiracy have arisen upon It been that ought to be called by those who wished to change the but they already charged hiin with being a and who would him to criminate As case was now understood by their he Learned On every that the question ought to be admitted as ' Mr. Brougham followed on the same The Counsel for the defence did not seek to give evidence of the declarations of Col. or the Milan That was not the present He had already had something tO do with the Milan and might have to do with them not at But because they did not now seek to fix the conspiracy on CoL Brown and his was her Majesty's Counsel to be prevented proving the conspiracy oii the part of other individuals to impede the evidence for the and to increase the evidence for the he might whether Brown or or any other person who had done and he could prove tbat it had been the fact ought to be brought home to I am proving that made himself an active agent against the by what he had He says to a person to to become for the Swear against the Princess of and have a The man I I know nothing about cries what signifies I will take you to the gardens where she walked with to the rooms where she sat with and I'll tell the and the hour when they were really so that you have nothing to fear from So come along with these choose your I will prove the Princess and to have beein and you have only to swear that you saw that's continued the Learned I am prepared to and it would be monstrous to suppose for a moment hearing any one of your Lordships lay his hand on his and declare on his that such a proof would hot make the slightest difference In his as to passing that which was to ruin The replied at some length to the arguments of her Majesty's Mr. the but Mr. Brougham had given up the legal and had that whether legal or the dence ought to be He according to the rules of law and the principles of the evidence could not bk Counsel were then ordered aed a long debate took but being strenuously opposed by the Lord it was on his motion decided thai the question should not be were then called and the determination of the House communicated to The witness Meoni was now callen to the and examined by You stated ZangU from Venice to X return with How many days were you at What distance from Milan to Venice hundred and Did you pay your or did anyone pay you did not pay even one hundredth part of a paid the Had you any business of your own at Milan Had any as a stage manager or - Did you see do any thing else than ga the Oporto and the Rue Gabello went also to loOk a person of the name of a sort of second manager of the Yoa told you saw come down from Col. Brown with a number of Napoleons in his hand I At that time did he make you any oiler The Attorney-General objected to the Mr. question as The we object to that fact as as not c Mr. I to understand that the decision of your is Ui apply to all other evidence that we may have ready to adduce of similar offers having been to ana bribe The LORD it would be too dsring to give an answer to your The House can only decide upon each question as it ' Mr. ean tender no other kind of evidence than can bring the case of nearer to the Milan Commission than that which your Lordships We have not Rastelli to we have not to we have no means of compelling their All that we can do we are ready to but your Lordships seem to that ail we can do is df no I your Lordships to be of tbat the calling oh Col. die of motley from and shewing that money as a. bribe received to bear evidence her are not sufficient to the bribery with the agents of the Milan If say that you cut thus the of pur we situated as we Rastelli being withdrawn frOm beyond our produce no stronger evidence than we have and your such is decision your Lordships have come then we nqt carry further the line of on which we bad LOUP I can without taking the sense of House on the thi of other witnesses must be left entirely to your own dis and I atn atne it be lieR to any better to put to the declined any inoss V yoa saw the in the imi of wero la or in paper any with the By was was and by Mr. Did he make any application to yon on the The objected 10 this the that the declaration of given by another was not admissible under such not laving been proved to be an Mr. Saidt asking the question was to Sacchi had assured the witness that his fortune would be evidence against and Of to shew that of her Royal was The of Sacchi had been established by the evidence of De Mont and He could at Sacchi acts under the Their Lordships would be guilty of the worst of if they would now retuse to open their eyes to a conspiracy established for such base Saechi was known ta be an authorised agent going about and the under he was could their Lordships to hear in proof of such vile it was to into the acts of the it was surely competent to their to inquire into the conduct of the agents of in gathering the evidence her Royal Lord ESKINE that with respect to the question of the Sacchi as a hi his a had been offered of the attempt of a person to corrupt he should at once proceed to the and calculate upon the event of the as of the most decisive Lord GREY that such a had been established between the Commission and that it indispensably necessary to prove the nature of his and if a person could be proved to have attempted to corrupt to swear what doubt could be entertained of his willingness to swear falsely himself The proof of a corrupt tlie part of a destroyed the credibility of that were then called The General to the admission of evidence which was brought forward to impeach the testimony of in the way it was now attempted to be Mr. Sacchi had notice of the charges against He came to bar as a and all his corrupt acts in this business was known to This took the particular case of the general And he would who would believe a man who in the same proved himself a suborner of perjury Mr. Parke and argued the case on its legal The LORD CHANCELLER as in former to consult the opinion of the Judges on the and he proposed that the following questions should be put to in the administration of justice in the Courts when a witness foi the prosecution had been examined in and had not been as to any declarations Jie had relating to his procuring witnesses for the whether the Counsel for the defence could bring evidence to prove such without first calling on the witness to know if he had ever made such declaration The Eari of thought there was a very easy way of getting rid of all the without putting the question to the J or losing the time of their was one way in which the question might be rendered and that by calling up and re-examining he of proceeding to which there conld be no and therefore he submitted to their Lordships that Sacchi should be called to the Tile LORD CHANCELLOR the Counsel on both if they had any objection to Sacchi being recalled to the Mr. the last time we called for a witness he was not to be ' The LORD if to be have any objection to bis being and when do you wish my both from Mr. and Mr. Lord ERSKINE that the question proposed to be put to the Judges by the Noble and Learned Lord on the did not meet bis of the He would propose to the following If on any trial a witness is called on the part of tlie and gives evidence against the and after the it is discovered that the witness so examined has endeavoured to corrupt persons to give evidence against whether Counsel for the defendant may not to evidence of such corrupt acts the Earl of CARNARVON that it was of no use to refer to the Judges for their since it was allowed on all that in the the House were not bound to abide by that In his the question proposed was consistent with every object of substantial he would therefore move at that instead df referring the questions proposed to the Learnt the questions proposed by the for her Majesty should be now The LORD CHANCELLOR then Is it your pleasure the question proposed be answered It was negatived without a and the House adopted the motion tor sending the question to the viz. in any trial in the Courts where a witness is called to give evidence in sucb and after it is discovered that he or endeavoured to other Counsel may be at liberty to give evidence of the without calling back the witness The LORD CHANCELLOR handed the question in writing to the Lord Chief Lord ERSKINE then moved an and the House accordingly DAY OF THE OCT. 20. to the being catted moved that their of the 2l9t of for the of from day to during the of these proceedings be The order was read when the Noble Marquis what had passed he felt it right to call their to this Previous to the question being put to the Judges a Noble Earl proposed to save time Sacchi should be called and he Counsel for the Queen acceded lo if he should be culled immediately but it appeared he was hot in so to be called and he understood that he was not even in he from Lord Then he was not within all the time wasted in discussion would have Under these lie thought their Lordships should enforce this and not let it be a dead letter on the The of certainly understood that Sacchi might have been hud the Counsel required iti .As to their order being he could have no Indeed he thought the witnesses ought to be in snch a situation during the proceedings would to attend instantly if He did not understand that the Counsel did so require the of The of LANSDOWN when he was if he wished Sacchi to to say - Altera few words fromT Lot d Lauderdale and Lord the with that their order was to be Counsel were then called and the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench to declare the opinion of the Judges on the questions referred to them last night by the Lord Chaucellor and and declared their opinion that both questions should be answered in the and that before a witness could be examined to the declaration of a former the witness must be called interrogated as to Tlie then addressed and said some differences of opinion existed as to the questions put to him and his answer 10 it as to calling he would now ask did he desire to call Mr. Brougham be certainly his wish to call him bad be betu but he was not now disposed to call Lord thought it right to state to the House a messenger was sent to huuse and he was coming down to attend their when he was met by several Noble who told him the House had The LORD then pot it to their Lordships lo adopt the opinion by tiie Lord would not oppose the decision of the but he considered there was still another ground this question might be and that that had been proved by bis acts the of the Milan The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not assent to this of ilie for formerly urged to their be continued of opinion Lord the Counsel would yet be well in requesting Lordships to this the uf the Learned for whom be hHd the Their were not Court oC and not to consider strictly by The ai of Law wa riOw ant of .i He would die ther in than to say thai he should thp v proved On the part of by his pans of Lord MANNERS as the rules of been strictly adhered to ou Ihs one in ' it equally lo be In mi ilie it be to the Judges lo a been proved or * Lord LANSDOWN could never coment lo any of jf were to refer to tlie 1'lisoii> tu agency had been or The LORD said he of their pni to question now lie pm io ilie Upon this their Uie for Ihe question ii The M of WN K li notice tout head of w.i. he h ive a ii to utc to then it to stale i- the at io of these the in was staled and agreed lo on all II would hp in of a most nad not only hni hid the Tlie for iia this point at bar an 1 h t ir- Inr telli oat or the were hun ihj hear to the friends df me this an 1 to convey When as to letters luni 15, relative to and j oil the subject of required lo such Mr. In on the that he not at liberty to the secrets of 111;-liesuhinitted, that Mr. Powell could not the of au but that their L for lo call for the principal their in was hound ail the lluir Uji an imaginary principal lo defeat Ihe and principal whose could not he by since Mr. Powell hud on his as he all the induced hmi to send to and that the for his not as far as Mr. was if these were the real nothing more would appear in the letters he and no injury conld the of these any principal of Mr. whoever that lit Id move that Mr. Powell bo called to Ihe and ordered to produce such part of the between him Col. Brown as related tu the of lo and ihe of his present or if it preferable he would move lhat such letters should he referred lo a Secret of their for report Lord LI saw great objections lo this Allowing lhat Mr. Powell was Ihe agent of tlie lie was iu this case called on fo produce these The Noble has of mis and the power of limine over as if it wasa public document but iu and in the character iu which their were it lo all and a between agent and bis and on all ihe rules of law and lu be held sai As to the act of sending out of the it one on which could be no d uf it was u must bui it was the act of one of the iu the cause without with any other and he not consent that such an act should be made a foundation for au outrage on one of the most sacred rules for and by forcing au agent to the breach of confidence towards its Lord KING decidedly of opinion the motion of his Noble Friend ought lo be The Noble Earl had acknowledged the impropriety of the act of sending out of the He would go he would say that any case brought forward in any of the Courts IU which the agents of the party should thus have conducted would have been put out of with indignation by the The Noble Earl bad this day admitted Indeed iie was Ihe of of hfs Ministers who was heard ou this He knew not the Noble Lord's lo shelter themselves behind their but though said he would tell them were equ illy responsible with the Noble A Learned Lord had said he had no wishes as to this one way or the to shrink from would at declare the present wanting this he would in his opinion never since the days of the Cibul had there been au so much or who had been in so wicked a The Marquis of LAN ll at the House was fully authorised on Powell to produce He was anxious lhat the truth be gut and as some Noble Lords thought this be doae bv a Secret he would withdraw his and submit which was That a be the of Mr. Powell and Col. Earl GUEY lhat the confidence between principal and agent would be violated by the of these If their this inquiry ought not to be then the whole of these proceedings should terminate and if their Lordships acknowledged an act of injustice had been which could not and into could not be would then move the of these The Noble Earl concluded iiy moving as an or rather an addition to the original that the Secret have to examine Mr. Powell as tu the of the made to The LORD put the as amended by Earl when the House Majority in favour of a The following were then on the Committee - The Lord President of the Earl Earl of Lord Lord On our into Lord Earl of Lord Lord Lord of Ihe we found Afr. addressing their He the of Mr. Powell had only been partially gone it might be necessary to call that gentleman lic thought that the truth of the case could not be got at without securing the uf the whole of the to if there was there could be no Lord CARNARVON thought that her Majesty's Counsel should not be excluded from examining Mr. He would now tbat Mr. Powell be called lo the Lord did not know what of justice their Lordships could refuse the request ot to examine Powell at the Ke could not express his contempt at this and The LORD CHANCELLOR put the Mr. Powell be now called to the which was negatived without a Mr. will now call another Alexander 0/i>aWJ and examined Uy YoH have been in the service of the Viceroy of Italy -I as Did yon serve in the of J at the battle of When did you return from 1815. - Were after in the French serf as When was you first lu her Royal the of Wales the month of 18lo> at heir villa at Who yoa to her Royal Do you arer seeing ber Royal Highness at 1817, vane Rome and tf I Wbsn did slie of Did ber Royal you any it Sbe Siik lae
